From: netzarim@netvision.net.il Received: from dialup.netvision.net.il (ts005p16.pop9a.netvision.net.il [194.90.11.108]) by nvsgi1.netvision.net.il (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA10718; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:42:29 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 18:06:21 PST Reply-To: netzarim@netvision.net.il Subject: Re: Thomas & James & Carcasses To: crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com Cc: crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com X-MAILER: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com Precedence: bulk Robert W. Allison: >I really don't know much about abstention from meat in Judaism, I'm just now starting to look into it.< Neither do I -- and I'm an Orthodox Jew *AND* a N'tzarim (Nazarene) Jew. >I know of abstention from meat associated with the cult of Apollo and Apollonius of Tyana, where it is associated with achieving a lightness of being (as opp. to heaviness) so it may be a feature of the absorption into Judaism in the first century of these Oriental (Iranian/Indian) ideas which are also being integrated into Hellenistic Greek religion?< What absorption? If you have some evidence in mind for abstention from meat as an intrinsic element of Judaism you should present it rather than just assert it as if it were established fact. >The similarities between Qumran practises and James (wearing linen, no use of oil) are commonplace observations, though what to make of them is another matter.< Where is the evidence for these practices of Ya'aqov? Evidence please, not bald assertions. That's called begging the question (petitio principii). >My idea is this: could the GT may be a product of a tradition of Jewish believers in Jesus who stemmed from the group associated with James in Jerusalem? Could this abstention from and symbolization of meat be their special custom?< Present the evidence supporting your assertions first please. Otherwise, for me at least, the idea doesn't leave the hangar. (I'll leave the GT aspect to those more knowledgeable.) >I suppose that the mention of the Rechabites in connection with James may be relevant.< The evidence here would be far more relevant. >In Jeremiah 35 the characteristic dietary trait mentioned for them was abstention from wine, which James also practised.< Source for Ya'aqov's practice please. Also, please establish a logical connection, with supporting evidence, between abstention from wine and abstention from meat *in both particular contexts.* >But maybe this suggests that the neo-Rechabites (or whatever this group was) in Jerusalem in the first century had expanded their dietary customs to include abstention from meat?< Maybe? I'd like to see far more logical reasoning appled. >At least they weren't put off by it, since they were sympathetic with James.< What does that have to do with it? You haven't shown that Ya'aqov abstained from meat. >I don't know of any reason to think that abstention from meat was a common practise of a "zaddik" but rather the other way around -- that James seems to have been viewed by some as a "zaddik", and it was his personal practise.< So far, that's merely your assertion unsupported by any evidence. >If anyone has any suggestions about this subject, I'd be happy to hear them. (I know the usual explanation is that of the nazirite oath for temporary enhancement of holiness, but it doesn't seem very temporary in James' case.)< Where does the oath of naziyr have anything at all to do with Ya'aqov? >My thoughts about the Qumranites and mysticism (a very slippery term, I know) starts from noticing in the Manual of Discipline how they read their scriptures at "all-nighters" apparently seeking "insight."< An occasional "all nighter" remains a Judaic tradition today, but what does that have to do with mysticism? Do we not seek insight? Must we be mystics to seek or find insight? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 18:06:21 Y'rushalayim Time, 10/29/96 Yirmiyahu Ben-David, Paqiyd 16; Ra'anana, Israel Q'hiylat Ha-N'tzarim (Global Congregation of Nazarene Jews) N'tzarim Virtual Community Center: www.netvision.net.il/~netzarim N'tzarim... Authentic * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *