From: "Antonio Jerez" To: "William Arnal" Cc: Subject: SV: arnal's gnosticism Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:27:27 +0200 Stevan Davies wrote: > > THOMAS NEVER TELLS YOU WHAT Y IS, > > WHY Y WILL RESULT, HOW TO DO X. > > > > Therefore Thomas seems to presuppose a whole system that it > > does not contain. Hence people turn to gnosticism to find > > systems that seem to fit because the same vocabulary can > > sometimes be found. Bill Arnal replied: > YES! This is the most sympathetic reading of my position on this. Steve wrote: > > But where was the argumentation to which they are the > > conclusions? That's the question. Bill replied: > And a gnostic (proto-gnostic, esoteric wisdom, whatever) system of > some kind is one answer that's available. What others are there? Very true, Bill. The coptic gospel of Thomas presupposes a kind of thought system that its hearers or readers where familiar with - and a lot of sayings and symbols in Thomas point towards a proto- gnostic or gnostic milieau. To call Thomas "jewish wisdom" like Steve does is not very helpful to anybody except Steve. Just finished reading Robert M. Grant's classic "The secret sayings of Jesus" (1960) and found a lot of useful information in the book that I had no idea about before. Not the least I learnt that a gnostic sect called the Nasseans (from the hebrew root NAAS= snake) used the Gospel of Thomas as part of their sacred scripture in the 3rd century. The roman christian bishop Hyppolytus even quotes verses from GThomas in his book "against the heretics" and explains how the Nassenes made their exegesis of parts of GThomas. So we know that GThomas was used by at least one gnostic sect (and according to Hyppolytus the Nassenes even called themselves "gnostics". What Stevan Davies maybe can tell us is if he knows the use of GThomas by some non-gnostic christian church. At least we know for sure that one gnostic sect used it and obviously felt at home in its mythological world. It would also be nice if Stevan could tell us in what "ortodox" christian writing he finds anything remotely like the combination of gnostic motifs and gnosticsounding sayings as in GThomas. I'm thinking about motifs like: Thomas 3 = "The kingdom is within you". The Nassenes according to our sources held to this doctrine. Thomas 7 = "Lucky is the Lion that the human will eat..." . The Lion was a motif in some gnostic litterature (the secret book of John) and platonism. Thomas 8 = According to Hyppolytus the Nassenes interpreted this parable as referring to the salvation of the true gnostic by knowledge. Thomas 11 = this verse also had a "gnostic" interpretation by the Nassenes Thomas 12 = the Nassenes also exalted James the Just, like in this verse in Thomas. The Nassenes held that Jesus ha Thomas 19 = Maybe Stevan can tell us where we find a reference to "the five trees in paradise" outside gnostic mythology. We find the five trees in Pistis Sophia. Thomas 21 = Mariham (Mariamme to the Nassenes) or Mary in english. Thomas 22 = The saying makes best sense in light of the gnostic and Nassene myth about primordial man and his androgynity. Thomas 23 = "one from a thousand" was developed into a gnostic slogan and qouted by Basilidians and in Pistis Sophia. Thomas 25 = the idea of the (gnostic) "lightman" is found in Pistis Sophia. Thomas 50 = also a saying best explained by going to gnostic myjthology. The "movement" is ultimately that of the unmoved mover, according to the Nassenes. Thomas 74 = This saying was also found in the Ophite heavenly dialogue, a treatise written by a gnostic sect. Thomas 77 = A comparable parallel to this saying is found in the gnostic gospel of Eve from which Epihanius quotes; "In all things I am scattered, nad from whereever you wish you collect me". Thomas 83-85 = these sayings are best explained by something like a gnostic or protognostic myth. Thomas 100 = as I think Bill Arnal has most probably shown by know this verse presupposes something like a Demiurge. The redactor of coptic Thomas has erased all traces of "God" in greek Thomas to make the text more openly gnostic. To the later redactors "God" probably stood for the demiurge. In total some symbols in GThomas that certainly give most scholars reason to look for cues to the interpretation of Thomas in the gnostic myths. It is not so, as Stevan Davies is claiming in the introduction to his Thomas book, that scholars think GThomas may be gnostic just because it was found among other gnostic scriptures at Nag Hammadi. Good scholars find more reasons than that for seeing coptic Thomas as proto-gnostic or gnostic. P.S Does anybody know where the Nassenes originated. I cannot find any references to it in the texts. And I find it strange indeed that Bentley Layton in his book about the gnostics uses a lot of pages to trace the Gospel of Thomas to Edessa, but doesn't mention at all that we know about at least one gnostic sect that used GThomas - the Nassenes. Antonio antonio.jerez@goteborg.mail.telia.com