Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:19 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199705152057.NAA28811@merlin.sedona.net>
To: crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com
From: Phil@sedona.net (Philip B. Lewis)
Subject: Arnal's Gnosticism - Jiminez
Cc: Phil@sedona.net

On Thursday, May 15, Antonio wrote in reply to my eariler posting on Arnal's
Gnosticism:

>I am not really clear about what Philip B Lewis means by "an orally
transmitted saying of Jesus" in this case. Do you mean that a saying
like GThom 13 and GJohn 4:13-14 might go back to HJ. In that case
I disagree. There is nothing orally at all in John 4:13-14 - just like most
of the rest of the gospel it is a litterary construction by the evangelist.
I think Philip B Lewis often overestimates the influence of oral
transmission
on the the shape of the gospels.<

Think what you like, Antonio, but I suggest you read again what I noted as
"an orally transmitted saying of Jesus."  No, I am NOT saying that either
GThos 13 or GJohn 4.13-14 "go back to" the historical Jesus.  They may, for
all anyone knows, but that's not the point.  The point is that LOTS and LOTS
of discussion occurred among those who looked upon themselves as followers
of the authentic (so they believed) Historical Jesus.  In that atmosphere of
Orality points of view were held and dialogue took place which prevened (a
lovely word) any written "documents."  I think we can peek over the edge of
history and get some idea of how those points of view were shaped.

I agree with Stephen Carlson, that there was a Special Matthew behind
GMathhew (he calls it a proto-Matthew, but probably means something
different than I do.) And I am sure there was a pretty extensive,
well-structured Special Luke.  (You have pooh-poohed my gathering of
evidence in response to Steve Davies' inquiry some months ago.  No one else
put forward any response to Steve's inquiry.)

So far as I am concerned we are required to reconstruct "history" from
literary materials which emerged from the mists of Orally transmitted
"stuff."  But if we look for fixed "stuff" (tradition) we aren't going to
find it; it doesn't exist anymore.  What we do have are some examples of
literary "freeze frames."  (I have used the term before.)  And we have to
come to grips with what those freeze frames represent - there just isn't
anything else to go on.

Philip
-phil@sedona.net

"What I need to know remains to be learned."
                                       pbl