From: "Stevan Davies" To: crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:49:37 +0000 Subject: Re: More on Thomas and synoptics (correction) > From: "Antonio Jerez" > > Mark 4:22 For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, > > and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into > > the open > > > > Matt 10:26 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, > > or hidden that will not be made known > > > > Luke 8:17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, > > and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out > > into the open > > > > GTh 5b For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, > > and there is nothing buried that will not be raised > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > Here Luke is closest to Thomas. So close that the first part of > > the saying is exactly the same in wording and word order. Disclosed > > and revealed are synonymous. Both Thomas and Q share this proverb with Mark. We have fragments of the Greek of Thomas 5 and 6b and it is substantially different than that of the Q version of the saying (Lk. 12:2 // Mt 10:26). However, the Greek of Thomas 5b (Oxy.Pap. 654.29-30) is in parts identical to Mark 4:22a, and the Greek of Thomas 6b (Oxy.Pap. 654.38-40) shares one key element (faneron) with Mark 4:22b, proving that Mark's version of this proverb is more akin to the Thomas version than it is to the Q version. Check it out. > > ----- > > > > Mark 6:8-13 Take nothing for the journey...Whenever you enter a > > house, stay there until you leave that town... > > > > Matt 10:7-13 As you go...heal the sick, raise the dead...Whatever > > town or village you enter, search a worthy person there and stay > > at his house until you leave > > > > Luke 10: When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is > > set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, "The > > kingdom of God is near you" > > > > GTh 14b (also greek Thomas) When you go into any region and > > walk through the countryside, when people recieve you, eat what > > they serve you and heal the sick among them > Just a correction to my earlier version of this message. Under > the saying Thomas 14b I was claiming that this saying existed > also in a greek version. No such thing. I was thinking on Thomas > 16 (which was the saying Stephen C Carlson was commenting > on). But there being no greek Thomas 14b doesn't change in > any way the fact that Thomas is closest to Luke. The coptic > version shows it just as well. Thomas isn't "closest" to Luke. Thomas and Luke share the same sentence and the other Gospels don't have that sentence. This proves nothing vis a vis Mark. The general presumption is that this sentence was in Q and that Matthew has revised Q more than Luke has, e.g. adding "raise the dead." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here there is absolutely no question about it - Thomas and Luke > > are so close, so close. Both Thomas and Luke have the command > to "heal the sick among them " after entering the town(region). Mark > has almost nothing in common with Thomas. Mark doesn't have this sentence. Luke does. Thomas does. The sentence is from Q. Lots of Thomas material is also in Q. > > Mark 7:15 Nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going > > into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him > > unclean > > > > Matt 15:11 What goes into a mans mouth does not make him unclean, > > but what comes out of his mouth makes him unclean > > > > GTh 14c For what goes into your mouth will not defile you ; > > rather it is what comes out of your mouth that will defile you > > No question about it here either - the sayings in Matthew and Thomas > > are virtually identical. Matthew has only stuck to Mark's more impersonal > > " a man" (any man), while Thomas makes the saying more personal > > by talking about "your" (own) mouth. Both Thomas and Matthew also > > have "mouth" in both parts of the saying. Mark doesn't even mention > > the mouth. The "defile" in Thomas could as well be translated as > "unclean". In his presentation of Thomas 14c Mark follows his usual practice of constructing a context for a saying, in this case one which may begin at 7:1 ff. It is certain in Mark's rendition that what goes in a man enters by mouth (which is specified that way in Thomas, and also in Mt. 15:11 due, presumably, to Matthew's desire to specify what was implicit in his text of Mark). In Thomas "that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you" implies that what is at issue are words. Mark, however, specifies that what comes out are "evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly" and, as these things do not come out of the mouth, Mark seems to have eliminated "mouth" from the saying. For Mark these things come out from the "heart" and not solely from the "mouth." [Mark has "from within, out of the heart of a man, come evil things" Matthew has "what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart and this defiles a man." (including theft etc.). Matthew seems to have managed to make the mistake Mark has avoided making, i.e. to make theft, etc. come out of the mouth. Perhaps Matthew knows an oral tradition version of this saying and revises Mark accordingly, perhaps he simply assumes "mouth." In any event, the lack of "mouth" in Mark is explicable and the presence of "mouth" in Thomas is explicable... for Thomas simply gives a proverb and the theft etc. problem doesn't exist for him.] The idea of such things coming from the heart may have been inspired by Thomas 45b wherein both words and evil things in general are under discussion. Mark seems to have greatly expanded 45b not to make a different point, but to add specificity: thirteen separate items. He presumably deleted the first half of 45b because what a good man brings forth is not the subject he wishes to discuss in 7:20-23. The proverb found as Thomas 45b is to be found also in Q (where it is combined with the saying found in Thomas 45a: Matt 7:16b//Lk 6:44b cf. also James 3:12). The Q and Thomas versions are essentially identical except for phrasing variations typical of sayings altered through oral transmission. -------------- To generalize, the fact that sayings show up in Matthew or Luke in a way similar to Thomas sayings over against Mark means often that Matthew or Luke has revised the sayings back toward versions in oral tradition or Q. This could happen because of source influence, or just common sense.The word "mouth" is implied in Mark and specified in Matthew and Thomas. Steve